PM's conversation with Bill Bryson
29 November 2006
Tony Blair spoke to best-selling author Bill Bryson during a podcast for the Downing Street website. Below, you'll find the transcript of the conversation.
Read the transcript
Bill Bryson:
Hello, my name is Bill Bryson. I write books and I am sitting in a very grand room in 10 Downing Street where I have been invited to have a conversation with the Prime Minister.
We were just talking about science and teaching science that is of interest and importance to us both. And one of the things that I have been saying all along since I became involved in science is that obviously you need, on one hand you need to be training physicists and chemists and you need to be teaching science seriously in any society in order to create new future generations of scientists, but at the same time it seems to me that one of the great failings of education everywhere, be it in America, wherever I have been exposed to it, is that people like me and evidently you who are not naturally drawn to science are left out. Certainly in my case I was dead bored by science in school.
How do you deal with that, how do you without trivialising science education, how do you convey to the average student, somebody who is going to do humanities, that science is really worth knowing and following, understanding?
Tony Blair:
You see I think you do it by dramatising the role of science in our progress and showing people how certain of the major things that we take for granted today were born out of scientific analysis and discovery. I found science difficult because I couldn't get hold of the basic concepts, and you know I am one of these people who unless I can get the first principles, the rest is a foreign language, and science for me was a complete foreign language from the beginning right the way through. And I think that sometimes what is necessary is to kind of make it a lot simpler for people at the beginning and then they can get a handle on the complexity of some of the ideas at a later time. But you know the way to give young people a real sense of what science can do is to show them how much of the modern life they take for granted was born out of people often saying things that seemed completely contrary to conventional wisdom at the time, and yet over time became clearly established.
Bill Bryson:
What started the whole idea for me when I decided to do the book was I was struck by the fact that I have always enjoyed taking my kids to the Science Museum, and I always watched programmes like Horizon and Equinox with great interest and you are naturally drawn to science, I mean science is all about us, you know we are all chemicals, so chemistry ought to be innately interesting to us, and yet somehow schools are failing to do that. I don't really know what the solution is.
Tony Blair:
I think part of it is we are trying to attract more people into science teaching and that is obviously important, but part of it is as well to get the people who are engaged in active science prepared to go into schools and tell children about it, and also recognise today that many of the most successful business people are people who came out of a scientific training and the link between the world of academia and the world of science and business is stronger today than it has ever been. You know bioscience, environmental technology, these are things where also people can get some sense that they are going to be able to change the world. You know I think people kind of think of science, they are going to be stuck in a laboratory somewhere doing these very arcane and complex experiments that no-one is ever going to take notice of. And yet you know if we look at an issue such as climate change, it is apparent that unless science and technology unlocks this for us then we face a very difficult, uncertain, possibly even disastrous future.
Bill Bryson:
It is interesting what you say about being prepared and being trained for certain things, and a lot of people in business will have studied sciences in school. And it is something that has often struck me about this is that it does seem like an awful lot of people do things that they didn't study that in university, they studied something else altogether. I just happened to be reading an archaeology magazine this week and it said that 85% of people who did archaeology at university are not archaeologists, they are doing other things, and I think that is actually a good thing, I really do. Perhaps the proportion is a bit wrong, but I do think it is something that isn't really noticed here that people have a great deal more flexibility. I think in the States, where I come from, you tend to train for a particular career and then you are locked into that.
Tony Blair:
What did you train for in fact when you were ...
Bill Bryson:
Well I was a terrible student, and it is a sad admission to make now that I am a Chancellor at one of your universities, but what I wanted to do was grow up and go out and live, and I wanted to get out of Iowa and go and travel and I suppose I had it in the back of my mind that I wanted to write in some way. And so there wasn't any training for that. And I did go to university, I took a four year course that took me seven years to graduate because I kept dropping out and going to Europe and hitch-hiking around, and I married an English girl and all those kinds of things, so I took a long time to graduate. And I think I changed my major at ... six times in order to finally get through. So I am not a model. And I keep telling my children this, you know I got away with it but actually you do have to be a little more focused about it. But I also do think that it is a good thing that people can do one discipline and then end up going into something else altogether, and I do think somehow life in Britain makes it easier for people to do that.
Tony Blair:
I think the other thing that will happen quite soon, and this was one of the reasons why it was important to make the changes we did in universities and how they are financed, I mean unless you keep your universities up to the top mark the whole time then there is a global market in university students today, and I think I can see a situation in 10 or 15 years time when kids coming out of school will choose a range of universities almost worldwide. And one thing that is really important for us is to keep not merely the standards up of our top universities but also the sense that kids will tend I think now to do more than one, you know they may do a degree and then they may go and do something else for a time, and they will go in and out of academic study.
Bill Bryson:
There is something that I think has changed slightly in the time that I have known Britain. I first came here in the early '70s as an American. I had no intention of staying but I just got here and found I liked it a lot. I stumbled into a job in the NHS working in a psychiatric hospital, met a student nurse, you know kind of fell for her, fell for Britain simultaneously and I was allowed to stay. It was quite easy in those days as long as you were doing some kind of worthwhile work. I got a work permit and every six months I had to go to Croydon and just essentially to the satisfaction of the immigration people that I was still gainfully employed, and then I was allowed to stay on for another six months. And I do think there is something wonderful about that, people being able to move and spend time in other countries, and it seems as if it is getting more and more difficult.
Tony Blair:
Yes it is a very good point. Look the problem that you have got as a policy maker today - and I want to speak a bit about this in the next few weeks actually - but there are two sides to the migration coin and one side is immensely positive, it is bringing in talent from outside, it is people who come in with energy and creativity and have an impact then on the host country of a very positive kind. And actually all major countries today if they are open economies, as we are, and free market economies then you will have people continually coming in and out of the country and it is a positive thing.
The flip side of the coin however is that with that comes problems as well, you know you get organised crime gangs, you get people trying to come in as illegals, and then that starts to cause difficulties, puts a lot of pressure, and then if you are not careful people end up in a situation where they view migration as a problem rather than as an opportunity for the country. And I think how you put the right rules in place that allow you to draw in the talent and minimise the problems is probably the toughest thing any policy maker faces certainly in any major developed country today.
Bill Bryson:
And how do you do that?
Tony Blair:
Well I think you need rules, you have got to have rules that our system puts in place that gives you the best chance of being able to identify people who are coming, tracking them when they are here, making sure that people obey the rules, making sure that you don't have people coming in claiming asylum when they are not really asylum claimants and all this type of thing, at the same time as making sure, and this is why we have introduced a new system now that those that you need for your economy can actually come in, and it is a very, very difficult balance and every country around the world is facing it, and I think if you went to the United States at the moment you would probably find migration a major issue there as well.
Bill Bryson:
Oh yes absolutely, no question about it. But it is a strange thing, you know at a personal level it is a very strange thing because I have spent an awful lot of time at dinner parties in Britain where the person sitting next to me has been talking, sort of railing about immigration in this country, and I always have to stop and say: "But you do realise you are talking to an immigrant."
Tony Blair:
You are not what they had in mind.
Bill Bryson:
Precisely. But I think there is a danger and I think if you are an immigrant like me you do sometimes feel as if you are being caught up, swept up in something, people are trying to close the gates in a way, in a way that I think is negative.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but I think it is all part too of the broader issue and science and technology and innovation are all very much part of this. But in the end for an economy like ours to succeed in the future it has got to be open, it has got to be an open economy. We have got to be prepared, for example in the City of London today a large part of it, probably the largest part of it is owned by foreign firms. Now 10 - 15 years ago that wasn't the case. Are we prepared to say well that is fine?
My answer would be yes, if the jobs are here, we are generating the income here, the fact that the ownership of some of our major city institutions is foreign doesn't to me matter. I think in relation to science for example if we want to make this country a centre for bio-science, for environmental technology, you have got to be prepared to have people coming in from outside in the same way that an economy like California for example has transformed itself from you know waves of migrant workers coming into it. So I think it is basically a positive thing and a plus, but it is becoming harder and harder at the political level to make that case without also being very clear about the rules you put in place to get some of the dangers diminished as much as it is possible to do.
Bill Bryson:
I just saw a statistic in The Economist that I found slightly arresting, and that was I was surprised to see that 400,000 EU born and presumably EU trained scientists are now working in labs in the United States. That is quite a large number. And I just wondered if that sort of outward flow of talent was of concern to you and what you could do, or what we as a society can do to tempt them back.
Tony Blair:
Yes it is and it is one reason why we are more than doubling the science budget and we are investing in our own science education, we are trying to establish this closer link between business and science because a lot of what these people do is they go to the US and they are working in very much cutting edge research that is then going to have a commercial exploitation of it, and it is also important that in our universities we are able to pay good salaries to the top people. It is as simple as that. This is really what I mean by saying it is a global market now in the university sector and in research and we have got to make sure we are attracting the best people in.
Bill Bryson:
There is a long history here of Britain doing the inventing and America doing the exploiting, you know everything from radar to computers, you know all kinds of things. How do you legislate against that, what can you do?
Tony Blair:
I think that what you have got to do is to encourage and develop that link between the university and the business sector. You see up in your place, the Durham business and science cooperation is now way, way further developed.
Bill Bryson:
Yes, and that is very important to them.
Tony Blair:
Yes, and I remember when I was opening one of the new centres there, it must have been a year or a couple of years ago now, and the link between business and science at a place like Durham University is way in advance of what it was a few years ago, but you have got to encourage that still further. People who develop great ideas have got to have the venture capital, the entrepreneurs who are willing to come in and exploit it, you know you have got to get that synergy between the business and the academic world. Now I think we are making progress down that path but we need to do more because otherwise we will be in the situation where again we have great ideas and they are not commercially exploited.
Now the other thing we have tried to do is change our tax regime on capital gains tax and other things to make it far more profitable for people to exploit their ideas here, but you know you are right this has been a big problem over a long period of time. The other thing we should do is use public procurement more. You know public procurement is something like £150 billion a year that we actually do public procurement in this country through the public sector, central and local government. If we were using at least some of that to encourage start-up new science and technology businesses it would make a big difference.
Bill Bryson:
I don't mean to keep going on about education, but there is one thing that I notice when I am walking across campus, as anywhere in Britain, Durham not least where I spend most of my time in the higher education role, is at how white they are. One of the things that is striking about Britain in the 21st century is that it is a very multicultural nation, which I think is a wonderful thing, but the university campuses tend to be still overwhelmingly white.
Tony Blair:
You mean in the electorate?
Bill Bryson:
No, no, in their student body.
Tony Blair:
You mean students too?
Bill Bryson:
And I just wondered what role government could have in that. I know that it is a matter of great interest to universities, they want to try and redress that, to get the balances changed a little, but I don't think they really quite know how to go about it and I just wondered what role government could play in assisting that?
Tony Blair:
I think there are two aspects to this: one is our own indigenous but ethnic minority population which over time I think will change in terms of more of the kids from that background going to university; but I think the other thing is I say attracting in overseas students, which we are doing now, but it is important that our universities remain absolutely up there. I mean we have still got 5 I think in the top, is it 50 in the world, but you know we need to keep that. It is not easy to stay there. And you know if you look at the American university system it has developed probably better than any other university system in the world.
Bill Bryson:
No, it is absolutely true, and higher education in this country is a real story, it is not often realised, as you say, but it is the only country in Europe that has any universities at all in the top 30 rankings, and 2 in the top 10.
Tony Blair:
Is that right, are there no German or French universities?
Bill Bryson:
No, and I don't really know exactly why, but there is a certain commitment to quality here that is still very important.
Tony Blair:
But of that top 50, Bill, how many would be American?
Bill Bryson:
Overwhelmingly, and it is quite striking how America dominates the list, and I think a big, big part of that is because we have this great tradition of giving, and you know the endowments that these universities have, you can't begin to compete with them.
Tony Blair:
Well the endowment thing is one thing, I mean I am looking now at how we get a similar endowment system going here. Actually there are universities beginning to do it here, but you are absolutely right, this is critical to the way American universities have succeeded, and you see it also means that although people will talk about the fees in American universities being very high, and they are very high, on the other hand the endowments give them the chance to mitigate the effects of that for large numbers of their students very positively.
Bill Bryson:
Well having gone through the system in both countries, you know I have got four kids and they have been educated in both countries, including at university level, I would urge you not to use the American model too strenuously. It has obvious successes and that is why you get all these American universities dominating all the lists in any kind of measure of quality, but you also get a system that is just a kind of, it wastes a lot of money. A figure that I read the other day that sort of knocked me back on my heels was that the average private four year university in America now spends $2,000 a head recruiting each student. That is how much it costs. It has become so competitive and there is much more of a sense of them being a kind of industry, a very productive industry.
Tony Blair:
They are very productive though, aren't they?
Bill Bryson:
They are, but there is also something, I don't know, it doesn't seem as if it is always about academics, it seems that it is more about success.
Tony Blair:
It is difficult, it is a very difficult balance, because exactly you know when we were talking earlier about Britain may be great at developing the invention but America exploits it commercially, the trouble is if you want to change that you have got also to have one eye constantly on what the world of business is pushing you towards and I suppose it is a difficult balance. I think the other thing that will happen is that China and India will start to develop, in fact already are, but I mean in a more international sense develop top quality universities.
Bill Bryson:
We have talked a lot about education generally, but I wonder if we could just touch on a place that has personal relevance to both of us - Durham. To be Chancellor of anybody's university is a huge honour, but you know I am from Iowa, there was nothing in my background that would ever have suggested to me that one day I would be gowned up like the Archbishop of Canterbury leading a procession through a mighty cathedral, because all of the graduation ceremonies are at Durham Cathedral. So just in terms of honour it is inexpressible how complimented I am by it. But it is also such a wonderful interesting experience, I get access to all these you know first rate minds and fascinating people, you know the people I sit next to at dinners are always, you know they are so smart and they are so interesting, and then the students are nice and really motivated and just kind of it is thrilling to be around because they are so young and fresh and full of energy. In just every way it is a completely delightful thrilling experience, and then not least Durham is such a magically beautiful historic town.
Tony Blair:
It is, it is beautiful, it is where I was brought up and my father was a lecturer at Durham University.
Bill Bryson:
And you cannot walk ten feet in Durham without somebody pointing out to you a Blair site, that this is where you were educated.
Tony Blair:
Probably the pubs!
Bill Bryson:
But your presence is still very powerfully felt there, and of course your constituency isn't far away.
Tony Blair:
My constituency is literally just south of the city, yes.
Bill Bryson:
Do you get back to Durham at all?
Tony Blair:
Yes I do, I go back to it fairly often. It is a little bit more difficult for me just to wonder around but I used to, even after I became a Member of Parliament I would go and spend a lot of time in Durham City and also up in Cathedral Green because it is such a fantastic place.
Bill Bryson:
It is, it is.
Tony Blair:
Very beautiful.
Bill Bryson:
And as I always point out to people it is the only university in the world that is on a world heritage site, so that is quite ... The other thing that always strikes me about world heritage sites in Britain, because of course you know I have an interest in heritage too, is that there are 26 world heritage sites in Britain but only 4 of them are natural, 22 of them are man-made, or human-made, and I think that is something that doesn't often get noticed here. The thing that is fantastic about Britain, it is not sort of what nature gave, it is what people gave and what people have done to the landscape and the things that have been created from Stonehenge, to Durham Cathedral, to Hadrian's Wall, you name it. And I just find that something that I admire more than I can tell you.
Tony Blair:
Yes, but we probably don't make enough sometimes of the heritage that we have, because it is remarkable, particularly up in that part of the world. But anyway I am glad you are enjoying it.
Bill Bryson:
I am having a fantastic time.
Tony Blair:
And thanks very much for coming in and talking to me today.
Bill Bryson:
Well it has been an honour to meet you and thank you very much for inviting me here. Thank you.
