1 June 2007
The Prime Minister has concluded his tour of Africa by holding talks with South African President Thabo Mbeki.
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Mr Thabo Mbeki:
Well Ladies and Gentlemen let me first of all say a very, very warm welcome indeed to Prime Minister Blair. I am very glad to see him here as he is about to leave office and I would really like to say that we have indeed benefited a great deal from your Premiership. And as you leave office you leave the bilateral relations between South Africa and the United Kingdom in very good shape in all respects really, political, economic, scientific cooperation, continued British assistance with regard to our development programmes we have, education and other. And indeed I am very, very pleased and appreciative of the role the Prime Minister has played in terms of strengthening these bilateral relations. So I was happy to communicate this to him.
Secondly, we of course have been very inspired by the very strong and bold positions that the Prime Minister and the British government took on the issue of the future of the African continent at a time when we ourselves on the continent were really trying as much as we could in a coordinated and united way to address these African challenges and indeed we needed that very strong voice of support which has resulted, as I am sure all of us are familiar with this for instance in the agreements that were reached at the Gleneagles Summit. And it has helped and I think that your intervention Prime Minister globally has helped indeed to focus the whole world on these African challenges and therefore given strength to the partnership that Africa wanted with the rest of the world to help to address all those challenges and in that context there are many things that have happened: your support for the peace processes on the continent, the funds that you have put into the capacity of the African Union to address the peace and security challenges on the continent, support for the African mission in Sudan with regard to Darfur and so on. It really has helped a great deal and I think that now there isn’t anybody in the world who wouldn’t want to put the African issue on the agenda and I say thanks a lot Prime Minister to the position that you took with regard to this really to raise the profile and indeed I am glad that you have come to the continent again because again that will emphasise this point, that Africa should not be on the margins of what happens in the world, but is part of the centre of the global agenda.
But I must also say that your intervention also starting at Gleneagles on this matter of climate change again I think has raised the profile of this issue. The sense that I get globally is that there is a much better focus now on that climate change issue than there was before, and indeed there must be further discussion about this and further decisions taken on the matter. But the positions you took and then the result of the discussions at Gleneagles I think have assisted greatly to move that particular matter forward.
I should have said, and I am sure everybody knows this, that at the forthcoming G8 Summit in Heiligendamm the Africa matter will be again on the agenda and this will give us an opportunity to have a look at what progress has been made since Gleneagles and to see what further progress needs to be made with regard to these African challenges. And I think it would be a good farewell gift to you Prime Minister if indeed at Heiligendamm we do take that Gleneagles process further forward with regard to African development and I would really like to hope that that is what will happen.
To which must be attached the matter which also you have taken up quite vigorously, which is very important for the African continent, which is the successful conclusion of the WTO development round negotiations. Again I must say that we are very, very pleased that you have been on our side on this issue because indeed this development round potentially can produce important results for the African continent in terms of these development challenges that we are trying to meet.
And lastly Prime Minister let me say congratulations also on what has been achieved in Northern Ireland. This is one of the issues that you and I have been in touch about over the years and indeed I was very glad to see on the television Ian Paisley, Martin McGuinness, this new leadership of the government of Northern Ireland, it has moved forward in a decisive way an issue which has been hanging around for a long time and I would hope that it must give an example to everybody else that however intractable these problems look, it is possible to solve them. But again congratulations on that because as you know we too have been following up on this matter.
But of course there are some other matters Prime Minister that remain on the agenda. You have raised quite insistently the need for movement on the Israel-Palestine question, but that is a matter that would continue, but I really do want to say thank you very much for the contribution you have made in terms of getting all of these issues that I have mentioned to move forward. And hopefully we will keep in touch, but thanks.
Prime Minister:
Thank you very much Mr President and thank you for the kindness and warmth of your welcome to me here.
Next week’s G8 gives us an opportunity to take another big step forward in the process that was begun at Gleneagles, both on Africa and on climate change. And the benefit of having such an international summit where not merely the G8 countries, but of course Plus 5 now, including South Africa, the other major players in international politics come together, is that it provides a focus, it helps concentrate minds on the decisions that need to be taken. And in respect of both Africa and climate change I think we are at a very, very critical point.
I would like to say in relation to Africa, thank you for the words that you said about my contribution, but I should also pay tribute to what you have done, in particular in starting, shaping and fashioning the NEPAD process. And I remember conversations I had with you very early on in your Presidency and my Premiership when you emphasised to me that in the end the solutions to Africa’s problems come from within Africa, it is the duty and obligation of those of us outside of Africa to give support and help but in the end Africa wants to take responsibility for its own destiny and future. And you made a great impression on me in the sense of trying to get away from a relationship between Africa and the outside world that was about donor and recipient, and to one of partnership and equality, where there were obligations on the African side as well as on the side of the developed world and where we move together recognising those mutual obligations are interchangeable. Because we all know that aid and debt relief matter, but so do conflict resolution, so do good governance, the absence of corruption and so on. So in a sense that very formative analysis that you gave me was what led to us trying to develop a different way of approaching these problems and that culminated in the Gleneagles G8.
Now on that let me just make one thing very clear. First of all sometimes, and this is in the nature of politics, people either say nothing has happened or everything has happened. The truth is since Gleneagles a lot has happened. There has been a massive amount of money given in debt relief, there have been increases in aid to Africa, but we need to do far more. There has also been around about a million extra people getting access to HIV-Aids treatment, but again there are millions more that don’t have it. There have been big increases in the numbers going into primary education in Africa, but there are still tens of millions of African children that have no opportunity to get primary education at all. And though it is correct that the number of conflicts has reduced in Africa, those conflicts that are still there are deep and problematic and causing suffering for millions of people.
So I think what is important is that next week in Heiligendamm when I am at the German G8 we recommit to what was agreed at Gleneagles and we step up to the plate both in terms of aid, in terms of help on combating the killer diseases and in issues like conflict resolution and peace-keeping, and there are a set of proposals that we were discussing earlier that we hope we can get the G8 Summit to agree to and obviously your leadership will be absolutely crucial in that.
And then in respect of climate change, you know again I think there is the possibility now of taking a major step forward from where we were at Gleneagles. The important thing that we tried to do at Gleneagles was this. I mean I have thought for a long time that although climate change is a major issue, although I think increasingly people accept it is a major issue, there is a very basic problem which is that unless you can get a global agreement that encompasses all the main players, and that means America obviously but also China, and India and the developing world that is as a result of its economic growth going to be emitting vastly more of the greenhouse gas emissions than before, unless you can get a comprehensive global deal with all the main players in it then we are unlikely to make progress. And you could have 100 or more countries sitting round a table making a deal, as at Kyoto, but unless everybody is going to understand that we all have a responsibility for this and step up to the mark and do something, then you could have any number of international agreements but they don’t deal with the problem.
So at Gleneagles what we did was we started that G8 Plus 5 dialogue which is the first time really that all the main countries had got together with a proper structured framework for dialogue on climate change and how we reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Now next week at Heiligendamm I think we have got to take that a step further. We have then got to agree what would be the elements that would go into a new global deal. And in that connection the speech that was made by President Bush yesterday is extremely important obviously. Now there is still a long way to go but let’s be clear, for the first time America is saying absolutely clearly it wants to be part of such a global deal; secondly it is saying that it will support a target for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions; and thirdly it is understanding that the only way this is going to happen on a fair basis is through the transfer of the changing technologies and scientific development, that is the only way we are going to get this problem resolved.
So I think next week is potentially a very big week indeed and I would only simply say to those who often question the value of such summits, if it weren’t for the fact that we were all assembled in Germany next week at Heiligendamm I don’t think, well let me put this diplomatically - rewind - put it like this, I think having the G8 summit next week in Germany has been a great help in securing things like for example a $15 billion increase in the commitment America is giving to tackling HIV-Aids, the announcement yesterday by Germany that it is going to increase by 3 billion euros its aid to Africa over the next 4 years, and also the major steps forward that we have seen in the last 48 hours on climate change. So I think it gives us an opportunity to come together and to make sure that that process that was started at Gleneagles is given a big impetus forward. So thank you Mr President for your leadership on these issues.
Obviously we have gone through other regional issues as well, Zimbabwe, Sudan and so on and had good discussions on all these things.
And I would just like to finish where you began, which is on the bilateral relationship and thank you very much for everything you have done to strengthen that relationship over the past decade. It is just worth pointing out that the two-way trade between our two countries today is some £6 billion a year, there were something like £15 billion worth of British investment in South Africa in 2005 alone, this is a huge commercial and trading relationship. And of course one of the reasons that that is so is because over the past few years under your leadership South Africa has prospered, its economy has grown, it is seen as a great place to come and invest. So I think there are some very strong pointers there for the future and I am certainly glad as I leave office to leave our bilateral relationship in a very strong state.
Question:
Prime Minister, can I ask you first of all what you discussed with regard to Zimbabwe and … Can I ask also in terms of intervention what you saw in Saddam’s regime that you don’t see in Robert Mugabe’s? And can I also ask with regard to climate change, you said that you need a comprehensive global deal with all the main players in it, do you think George Bush’s proposal yesterday goes far enough or are you inclined to push for more?
Prime Minister:
Well I think in relation to the first point, without going into what would be quite a PhD thesis in comparative regimes, I mean look in the end what is important is to improve the conditions of the people of Zimbabwe and the obligation of Britain is to do everything it can to help. But I think people also know that in the end the solution is an African solution for Zimbabwe and that is why I welcome very much the work that President Mbeki has undertaken on behalf of SADC and we wish it well and we will do everything we can to support the changes necessary to improve the lot of people in Zimbabwe. But that is something in the end that will have to come from within Africa itself with the support of course from people outside.
In respect of what President Bush said, you know let’s again put this in perspective. Of course I want to see us now go further from what President Bush laid out, but let us be clear, for the first time we have the possibility of a global deal, with America in it, with a target for the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. And then of course you have got to go further and say how are you going to do it, what are the right market mechanisms that are going to be done, how do you transfer the technology to the poorer countries of the world? But from a position where a few years ago there was no possibility of getting such a global deal, I think you can now see a pathway to getting such a deal in the future. And I want to say one other thing because I know there has been some criticism of America saying well it wants to host all these meetings and so on. Personally I think it is a good thing if America is as actively and closely involved as possible, and the reality of international diplomacy as such is that if they are holding international meetings where the key players are coming together, I mean they are not going to come together and disappear without doing something. So I think actually that again is something that we should view in a positive light. So of course I want to see the whole thing go further, but I think it is right to recognise you know how far we have come.
Mr Thabo Mbeki:
Let me add something on the Zimbabwe thing. You know of course that the southern African development community took some decisions on this matter, this matter … So the position of the region here is that there are political problems in Zimbabwe that need to be solved, as a consequence of which the decision was that we should help to facilitate discussions between the government and the ruling party and the opposition in Zimbabwe to find a solution to those problems. This process has started, we are indeed engaged in that process now. The second decision was that there are problems affecting the Zimbabwe economy and as a consequence of that the region then sent the Secretariat of the Development Community in the region should have a close detailed look at the Zimbabwe economy with a view to reporting back as to what might be done to address the challenges of the economic challenges of Zimbabwe. You would know of course that President Mugabe was present at that meeting and agreed to all of these suggestions. So it is that two pronged approach which seeks a solution to these two critical matters, and I did brief the Prime Minister about this, and that is the way we are going. And I must add to that that the SADC region, southern Africa, will of course report regularly to the African Union also about the matter as to how far we are progressing. So that is the African response to this particular challenge.
Question:
President Mbeki, you spoke about the possible achievement of the implementation of some of the Gleneagles commitments next week, and I think Prime Minister you spoke about specifics. What realistically is the most likely and important progress that you expect to be made next week in implementing the Gleneagles commitments?
Mr Thabo Mbeki:
Well that is a bit of a difficult question you see because you are asking me to make a forecast to foretell what will be decided. But I think that the position that the Prime Minister explained is correct because you see we identified all these areas, the priority areas on which there must be movement, and indeed there has been movement, whether that is debt relief, or the infrastructure mechanism at the African Development Bank, the investment facility, the climate facility and so on, all of these things have happened, including the ones that the Prime Minister has mentioned. What is important, what will have to happen at Heiligendamm, which was agreed already at the last summit in St Petersburg, is that we will then have to look at how far have we moved with regard to the implementation of the set of decisions that were reached between the G8 and the African continent, and what more can be done. So I think the best we can do is to express our own conviction that what we would like to see come out of Heiligendamm is further movement forward with regard to all of this. And I don’t have a sense that there is anybody among the G8 who is opposed to that, and indeed the matter that the Prime Minister has just mentioned about increased aid from the US, from Germany, has just been announced in the last few days, I think that is a signal of that kind of commitment. So we want further movement with regard to all of those matters that have already been agreed on this agenda now and to say that this is what the outcome will be, that would be a bit difficult. But certainly that there must be further movement, a reconfirmation of those positions and further movement, a critical look at what has happened and further movement with regard to those agreed matters, I think that is the best I can say on the matter.
Question:
Two questions if I may. You have said next week’s meeting in Germany is another chance with the G8, but I wonder do you feel a sense of personal failure or regret that there hasn’t been more delivery so far while you were still in office on what was promised at Gleneagles? And if I could add, a tape has appeared of our missing BBC colleague, Alan Johnston, and I am just wondering what is your response to that?
Prime Minister:
In respect of the latter point, you know I feel deeply for Alan Johnston and for his family. We are doing everything we possibly can do to secure his release. I do urge those who are holding him to release him. He is a journalist doing his work out there, he is someone who is known for his independence and his integrity and I don’t think I should really comment on the video as such made in the circumstances in which it is. But we will carry on doing everything we can and hope that we can secure his release for him and for his family.
In respect of the first, actually I feel that both as a result of Gleneagles Africa is firmly now on the agenda; and secondly, that the commitments at Gleneagles were never commitments that were supposed to be done in a year, or even two years, they were supposed to be done over a period of time. So just take one example, which is HIV-Aids treatment and access to that treatment which we said at Gleneagles should be universal by 2010. In the past couple of years a million extra people have got treatment. Now there are many millions more that need to, but the announcements of now a doubling for example of the American programme, additional countries like our own, Britain, stepping up to the plate and doing more, this will in the end mean that millions of lives will be saved as a result of this. And so I think whether it is in aid, or debt relief, or primary education or combating the killer diseases there is an immense amount that has happened and now we have got to go further, and that was always the Gleneagles process. And you know you just take for example the announcement by Germany, that is 3 billion euros extra over the next 4 years. We asked for this to be done, it has been done. And so it is no longer just the case that people say well Britain may be meeting its obligations, others aren’t. America and Germany have made very substantial commitments just in the last few days and that is important too.
There is one other thing I would like to say as well which is that on the African side of the agenda the idea was to use the peer review group mechanism, and that is being used now, South Africa for example is going through this process at the moment and this is very much President Mbeki’s leadership that has given rise to this, and also although you can point to many difficult parts of Africa, you can also point to what is it, 12 or 13 democratic elections that have happened in the past few years. Now again you go back some years, that wasn’t likely either.
I am sure that if we take the right decisions next week and push the agenda on again, I think we will have made it clear that Africa stays at the top of the international community’s agenda until the commitments are delivered. Look, it is in the nature of politics that everyone always wants more and more quickly, that is good, but realistically I think we have come a long way from Gleneagles.
Question:
This is a question for Prime Minister Blair. I would just like to know, with regard to going back to Zimbabwe, there has been a lot of criticism of South Africa’s quiet diplomacy policy over the years towards Zimbabwe and Britain has taken a different tack, I think we would call it loud diplomacy, loud condemnation perhaps of Robert Mugabe’s government. I would just like to know what you think, looking back on it now, what Britain’s policy has achieved, if anything? And looking back, would you have done anything differently in your dealings with Robert Mugabe?
Prime Minister:
Look the honest answer to this is that my views on what has happened in Zimbabwe are well known, so is my country’s, that is very clear. But the only thing that matters in the end is not what I say or what anyone else says, it is what happens to the people in Zimbabwe. And the solution ultimately since nobody is giving any other solution is a solution that comes from within this region of Africa, and that is why we have got to put our efforts behind supporting the process that President Mbeki has laid out and do everything we can to make sure that the proper views of the people of Zimbabwe are heard and that they get a better future. And I get attacked from both ways round on this issue, I get attacked for not single handedly changing events in Zimbabwe myself and I get attacked on the other side because people say well you know when Britain intervenes it is the least helpful thing in relation to this. The truth is whatever the views I have, and they are well known and they are very clear, the most important thing is to help the people there, and we are actually helping them with humanitarian aid and with other help and we will carry on doing that. But it is from within Zimbabwe and this region that change has got to come and what we will do is support those like President Mbeki who are trying to bring about that change.
Question:
… What do you think of Gordon Brown?
Mr Thabo Mbeki:
I have tried to get a vote in that British process to elect the leader but they have denied me. Disenfranchised, that is me.
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