28 January 2008
Gordon Brown has called upon Pakistan to hold "credible elections" and move towards a democratic future following the recent upheaval in the country.
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Prime Minister:
Can I say first of all it is a pleasure for me to welcome President Musharraf to Downing Street. We have had a very productive meeting and I am very pleased that Mrs Musharraf is here with the President as well as he is visiting a number of European capitals.
The links between Pakistan and Britain are strong. Pakistan is a key ally in combating terrorism and extremism. The vibrant Pakistani community in Britain reminds us of our long standing friendship and our shared history, and a stable Pakistan is essential for the security of the south Asia region.
I urge President Musharraf to work with all political parties in Pakistan for a peaceful democratic future for the country and I called on him to continue to promote reconciliation, as I know he wants to do, between moderate forces to unite against the growing threat of violent extremism.
For Pakistan credible elections on 18 February are essential. President Musharraf has assured me that all electoral processes are in place to ensure transparent, credible polling. The priority now for the international community and the government of Pakistan must be to ensure that the democratic process remains on track.
We also discussed cooperation in defeating terrorism and extremism. A team of United Kingdom experts is visiting Pakistan to consider how cooperation can be further enhanced. We discussed what further assistance the UK and the international community can offer Pakistan, including new help in exchanges on forensics, on training, on investigating the financing of terrorism and the sharing of expertise. We have also had an exchange on the regional security situation and we agreed on the need for progress on the joint Jirga (phon). Only working together can Pakistan and Afghanistan defeat the extremism that has threatened both their countries.
President Musharraf, thank you for being in London.
President Musharraf:
Thank you very much Prime Minister, thank you very much for all the remarks, and I don’t have much to add.
I would like to reinforce whatever the Prime Minister has said already. Let me inform all of you that we had an excellent interaction, interaction which covered bilateral relations. And we showed a great desire, a strong desire to enhance our bilateral relationship, our bilateral cooperation. And I am extremely grateful to the Prime Minister for all his understanding, for his desire to enhance cooperation with Pakistan, enhance assistance to Pakistan, especially in the socio-economic sector, and within that especially in education. So we are grateful for that Mr Prime Minister.
We did discuss in detail the aspect of terrorism and I did take the opportunity to inform the Prime Minister about all the facets of terrorism that we face in Pakistan and how we are trying to address each aspect of terrorism through a very holistic and comprehensive strategy. And I tried to explain to the Prime Minister for his understanding how we have a challenge, but we are trying to cope with it. And I am very glad to say that we are satisfied that the Prime Minister showed a keen desire to assist us wherever we are lacking our potential, especially in the area of forensic and technical capabilities that we could develop for better performance against terrorists and extremists.
The other area of detailed discussion on the democratic transition, I did inform the Prime Minister of our strong desire to go forward with the elections and to ensure that the elections will be free, fair and transparent. And that is what our resolve is and we will have the elections on 18 February. And I also informed the Prime Minister of how I see the scenario developing beyond 18 February and we are very sure that we will have peaceful transition and we will have a strong democratic government following the 18th February election.
So on the whole, Ladies and Gentlemen, it has been an excellent interaction. We look forward to stronger relations between Pakistan and the United Kingdom. I express our gratitude to the Prime Minister for the financial assistance that the United Kingdom is providing to Pakistan.
Thank you very much.
Prime Minister:
… very pleased to hear the news that the 200 and more children who were held hostage in Peshawar have been released. Hostage taking in any instance is wholly unacceptable and it is reassuring that the children are as we believe safe and have been released.
President Musharraf:
Yes indeed they have been released. This has been confirmed just now, and these were extremists who have been chased actually and they took refuge in the school, so they didn’t go really to take the children as hostage, it was incidental that they entered the school to hide themselves, but in the process then to hide they took those students hostage, but finally it has been resolved peacefully, the children are free.
Prime Minister:
That is very good news.
Question:
Could I ask you, despite the fact that clearly everyone will be relieved the situation has been resolved in this way, to what extent does a worrying situation like that buttress the President’s case that other world leaders perhaps need to be more understanding of the nature of the extremist threat that is faced in Pakistan? And Prime Minister on a domestic matter, if I may. Many of our viewers seem profoundly unconvinced that your government is really grappling with the problem of alcohol-related violence and disorder. What reassurance can you offer them?
President Musharraf:
On the terrorism side let me say that these acts are actual desperation. We have very successfully, or reasonably successfully I could say, sealed the border by having established about 1,000 posts, selective patrols of the border, and we have risen a 3 kilometre belt of the border, we have a curfew enforced, as a result of which the assessment on the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) side is a 42% reduction in transport or movement from the Pakistan side to that side - that is the success. Having said that, there are now desperate acts and we have launched an operation against the main militant - that is Basur al Massoud in South Waziristan. So these are desperate acts now, they have turned their guns inside Pakistan, on the government personalities, they want to disrupt the democratic process, and then this act of going into the school is a desperate act, maybe to take away attention from the military operation. I think we will keep going strong on the side of Pakistan.
Prime Minister:
Terrorism and hostage taking is completely unacceptable, it is an affront against humanity. To have taken hostage 200 children is something that the whole world will be both angry about and wanting to make sure is not something that will happen again. I am reassured that the children have been released, but it reminds us of the continuous threat that we face from terrorists who could hold young children hostage in this way is something that I think the whole world abhors.
You asked about drunken violence, and that is something, drunken violence is something we cannot tolerate. I think our society sets clear boundaries about what is acceptable and what is unacceptable and our streets and our town centres should be safe for decent law abiding people. And people who want to have a drink socially and responsibly should not be interferred with by those who are irresponsible and antisocial.
So under-age people should never be able to buy drink, people who are clearly drunk and likely to become violent should never be served more alcohol in hotels or pubs. We are increasing patrols by police and community support officers, we are giving the local authorities the power to ban drinking in public places, to charge pubs and clubs for the cost of policing with this disorder outside their premises. As you know we are reviewing the way the licensing laws are operating and we are investigating the ways in which retailers offer and advertise cheap alcohol, and we are using special teams to identify, fine, and ultimately shut down businesses that are selling drink to under-aged young people, or to people who are already intoxicated with drink.
So we will continue to take decisive action on these matters. But I know we need to do more, not just the government and the industry but society as a whole and every community in our country, and we need to come together to enforce the boundaries against what is unacceptable behaviour.
We will be publishing our proposals in relation to alcohol very soon, but the most important thing I think is we need to teach all our young people to be responsible when it comes to drinking.
Question:
Prime Minister excuse me for taking you from terrorism and extremism to another subject. There is a general perception in Pakistan that the Kashmir issue as an unfinished agenda of the British government. Now that India is having on the other side problems with all of its neighbours, we now hear that your government plans to support India’s candidature for the Permanent Membership of the Security Council. Would you like to comment on that?
Prime Minister:
I am glad that first of all there is greater security in Kashmir and some progress being made. As far as the Indian candidature of the Security Council of the United Nations, that is longstanding British policy, British policy about reform of the United Nations, and that is something that is in relation not just to India but in relation to other countries where reform also will have to be made. So an extended and reformed United Nations Security Council is the policy of the United Kingdom government that has been for some time.
Question:
Mr President you have talked about efforts to seal the border with Afghanistan, but can I ask you particularly about the tribal areas. Do you accept that Pakistan has so far failed to defeat both the Taliban, al Queda and other extremists in the tribal areas. Does the solution lie in more Pakistan security force boots on the ground, does it lie in accepting a great deal more intelligence cooperation with the United States and with Britain, particularly if you are not prepared to accept American combat troops in the area? And on the other side of the debate, efforts against radicalisation, do you also accept that much more needs to be done to invest in state education in Pakistan if you are to counter the effect of Madrassa schools and the radicalisation of young people, when a lot of Pakistanis apparently find Madrassas an attractive place to send their children because they think the state alternative is so poor?
President Musharraf:
First let me counter this point of you all that we have failed. We haven’t failed, we are going along fighting Al Qaeda, fighting militant Taliban and fighting Talibanisation flowing outside the tribal agencies into … districts, and also fighting extremism in some parts segments of our society in Pakistan. This is a holistic issue that I have just told you. We have a strategy for each one of them. When you talk of fighting the Taliban and Al Qaeda in the tribal agencies, let me tell you I think we are succeeding against Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda used to be in our cities by the hundreds. They are not now in our cities since the past years. We caught about 6 - 700 of them. Then they ran in our mountains, they were in our valleys by the hundreds. In the same … they are no more there in hundreds in the valleys. So this is our success, but we are there and we are still persevering and attacking them.
On the Taliban side they …, these our own people, but the whole population is not Taliban. We are trying to win away the population through a political approach to the problem, we are attacking the militant Taliban and we are denying their movement across the border so that we break the linkage between the … Taliban and Pakistan, which we have succeeded, as I said 42%.
So where is the failure? Now if you think that success means everything is hunky dory in 5 days - no Sir that will not happen. It may mean the battle is long and we will persevere with this. It may take a long time and the perseverance has to be on both sides, on the one side and on Pakistan’s side. We have to win on both sides, meaning on one side will not be enough. So I am afraid I don’t agree that we are failing on the Pakistan side.
The other point that you made is of Madrassas and education. First of all let me tell you, because a lot of misperception, I am sure you don’t have that misperception, but still I would like to say that only 2% of students of Pakistan go to Madrassas. There is a general belief by those who don’t know Pakistan, they think that every student, maybe every one is a product of madrassas in Pakistan. I have studied in St Patrick School, which is a Catholic school, and a formal Christian College in Lahore which is a Protestant College, and these missionary schools and colleges are doing wonderfully well in Pakistan. So most, 98% of students are products of other schools. All Madrassas have a strategy, we have partially succeeded. Please understand that 100% success, one tries to expect 100% success, you don’t have 100% success everywhere. We wanted Madrassas first of all to register. I think 75% of them have registered, if not more. Then we wanted all foreign students who where in thousands, without any relative documents, to get out of these Madrassas. They are all out. Only a couple of hundred maybe, and they have NOCs from their respective Embassies - that is another success. Then we asked them to teach both subjects. They have agreed to teach in both subjects, and many of them do teach both subjects. But where we have failed is that they must take board examination and accept board certificates, and not their own. That is where we are dealing with them and we haven’t met success as yet, but I am sure we will make an arrangement on that also and we will move forward.
This is a part of poverty of Pakistan and we have not been able to universalise education. Schools are not available for many, many miles in rural areas. That is where these Madrassas sprout up. And when the people are poor, if they cannot afford education, that is where the Madrassas come up.
So it is an issue, a social-economic issue, and I am grateful to the Prime Minister. He is extending increased financial assistance in the education sector.
Prime Minister:
Yes, and I think it is very important to recognise that we have discussed today how we can intensify our cooperation against terrorism and extremism, at ports and at airports by greater cooperation, by greater exchanges of information. And we did discuss this issue about Madrassas and the poisoning of young minds through extremist propaganda. And obviously this is a problem in every country of the world, but we will cooperate and share information on how we can deal with that problem as well.
President Musharraf:
I will add just one more sentence. What our strategy lately was, if we can substitute … Madrassas., if we can open a similar school, a better school and house these poorest of the poor children, that will be a great substitute to the Madrassas and I am sure the children will not go there then. But that means obviously the finances, and the resources, and doing the …
Question:
Inaudible.
Prime Minister:
That as far as the openness of trade is concerned we would want to have better trading relationships, we want a world trade agreement that helps countries like Pakistan, and we want to have the maximum economic cooperation possible. I do say that it is important to the international community that transparent, free and fair elections take place in Pakistan, and I think the President understands my support for that and that we have worked together to see what we can do to help each other in building democratic systems around the world.
I think as far as trade is concerned, we recognise that what is preventing a world trade deal at the moment are blockages that it is in all our interests to remove in the interests of Pakistan. So in the next few weeks I will be doing everything in my power, with other leaders from around the world, to seize on a window of opportunity for there to be a world trade deal. Now that is to the benefit of Pakistan and to countries that are dependent on the trade with the rest of the world in the way that Pakistan is.
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