6 October 2005
Iraqi President Jalal Talabani visited Downing Street for talks.
His meeting with Tony Blair came ahead of next week’s referendum on a new Iraqi constitution, which will be followed by elections due in December.
Opening statement
Tony Blair:
Good Afternoon everyone. First of all can I extend a very warm welcome to President Talabani here in Downing Street. We were just saying that the first time we met together here was actually in December 2002.
Jalal Talabani:
I asked you to come back.
Tony Blair:
You asked us to come back, and we did. And I just want to say a few words before asking the President to say a few words, and then take some questions.
Saddam Hussein was removed from power over two years ago now. For the last two years in Iraq there has been a process that has been supervised by the United Nations, with full international and UN support, to try to ensure that after the removal of Saddam and the brutal dictatorship that he represented, that the Iraqi people could have a proper functioning democracy in which people of all religious faiths, and all different ethnic backgrounds, could come together in a new dispensation for Iraq.
Since that time, it has obviously been extremely difficult because of the security situation, but it is important that we understand what is the problem that is being caused. The problem that is being caused is that some people don’t want that democratic process to succeed, they don’t want the will of the Iraqi people to determine the future of Iraq, they want it to be determined either by outside influences, by global terrorism, by various militias and armed groups. And I think whatever people, and obviously this is a matter of future controversy, felt about the decision to remove Saddam, in these past two years there really has been only one side to be on, and that is the side of the Iraqi people, 8.5 million of whom voted in the January elections and who now want to be able to participate in the December elections and decide their future, as I said at my Party Conference speech, in the same way that we do here.
And to those people who believe that somehow democracy is something that is a western construct that can’t be applied in the Middle East or different parts of the world, it is worth just remembering that in those January elections, in their millions people came out to say no actually we want this too. They did it in Afghanistan a few weeks ago, and that is why I think it is so important that we stay the course and see this through, to help the Iraqi people get the democracy they so self-evidently want, and to say their will and the democratic will of the people should determine the future of Iraq, not acts of terrorism or people in armed gangs trying to wreck the stability of the country.
Now of course the very purpose of that terrorism is to create division, we know this, this is the purpose of terrorism everywhere and in Iraq it is very particular, it is to put Sunnis against Shias, it is to make people think that there is no future in a stable Iraq, that people should just go back to the old way of doing things because the future is so bleak. And we have got to have the confidence and the ultimate optimism that says no we are not going to allow the human spirit to be suppressed in this way, and its desire for freedom, we are going to allow people the same democratic rights in Iraq that we take for granted here.
So this is what this is now about, and we are partners for the new Iraq in trying to achieve this change. All of us know that we have to build up the capability of the Iraqi forces, which we are trying to do, and all of us know also that the purpose of the multinational force, with as I say the support of the United Nations, the purpose of it is to remain in order to achieve that, not in order to be there for strategic interests, or any of this stuff about occupation or any of the rest of it, that is not what it is about at all, what it is about is making sure that we remain until the Iraqi forces are capable of securing their own country and so that Iraq is then capable of becoming a proper functioning and sovereign democracy, as it should be.
Now that is where I think democrats everywhere, whether in Iraq or in this country, have a common cause and we intend to stay with you for as long as you need us, for as long as you want us, to see that cause through.
Thank you Mr President and welcome to you and your colleagues.
Jalal Talabani:
Thank you Mr Prime Minister. It is a great honour for me to stand here and represent the youngest democracy in the world. I came here to tell Prime Minister Blair thank you, thank you for liberating us from dictatorship, and thank you for helping us build our democracy, a new Iraq. With the help of our allies, the people of Iraq are now free, they are enjoying all kinds of democratic rights. We are - Iraqis - building a democracy from the ruin of a country shattered by a brutal dictatorship. Saddam’s Iraq was a concentration camp above ground and a mass grave beneath it.
Your sons and daughters freed us from that nightmare. The people of Iraq will always be grateful for the leadership you showed, Mr Prime Minister, and for the courage and dignity of your troops. We will never forget it, we will never forget it.
Today’s Iraq is being built on dialogue, compromise and equality. It will be based on inclusion, not exclusion. Next week, for the first time in the history of Iraq, my fellow citizens will vote on a draft constitution. It contains many values that Iraqis have fought and sacrificed for it, it lays a new foundation for their country, a foundation based on the values of democracy and freedom.
On this issue, Iraqis defied the terrorists and the suicide bombers and elected for the first time in free elections, an elected parliament. That election was a milestone in the history of Iraq and in the history of the Middle East. Next week’s referendum will be another one. Our efforts and your democracy are under attack by the same fanatics who celebrated the crimes of September 11 and London on July 7. They are the same murderers who killed 89 Iraqi Muslims yesterday as they prayed on the first day of Ramadan. Those who think that terrorism in Iraq is a result of the multinational presence there are wrong. The terrorist activities started before, even in this country and the United States. The supporters of Saddam Hussein and the foreign terrorists of al Queda cannot stand the idea of democracy in the heart of the Middle East, that is why the continued presence of British and American troops is absolutely vital for us.
Here I say thank you to the people of Great Britain and those who have family and friends serving in Iraq. Thank you for their courage, thank you for your fortitude. Your commitment to the cause of democracy in Iraq, your help in training our security forces, will help us stand on our feet and run our own country. To those who are calling for a pull-out of the troops from Iraq, I say we too want to see an end to the presence of the multinational force, but the actions of the terrorists are keeping them there. An early pull-out would be a catastrophe for the people of Iraq and for the cause of democracy and it will be a win for terrorism. We say we will set no timetable for the withdrawal of the troops, a timetable will only help the terrorists to think they can defeat us and impose their will on us and on you. Neither you in the free and democratic world, nor we in Iraq, can afford to abandon the cause of democracy and hand Iraq to the terrorists.
Mr Prime Minister, with your help we will never allow Iraq to become a new haven for al Queda, or a source of instability for the region and for the world.
Thank you.
Question and answer session
Question:
Prime Minister, some very serious allegations have been made, implicating Iran, but they were made behind closed doors and were made anonymously. Are you prepared to publicly back those accusations, implicating Iran in the murder of British soldiers? And to you Mr President, the same question really, do you believe Iran is implicated in the murder of British troops and if so why, why are they doing this?
Tony Blair:
First of all let me just dispose of one part of one conspiracy theory. There is nothing premeditated about this. There has been, and I will tell you exactly what I know about this situation because at some point in time we were going to have to have this discussion, we might as well have it now. But let me just tell you exactly what I know. What is clear is that there have been new explosive devices used, not just against British troops but elsewhere in Iraq. The particular nature of those devices lead us either to Iranian elements or to Hezbollah, because they are similar to the devices used by Hezbollah that is funded and supported by Iran. However we cannot be sure of this at the present time. But I want to make it very, very clear, and this has been made clear to the Iranian government and I will make it clear again, the British forces are in Iraq under a United Nations mandate today. We are there with the support of the United Nations-backed Iraqi government.
There is no justification for Iran or any other country interfering in Iraq, neither will we be subject to any intimidation in raising the necessary and right issues to do with the nuclear weapons obligations of Iran under the Atomic Energy Agency Treaty. So I am telling you exactly what I know, there are issues there, it is a discussion that has been going on for the past few months because of our concern at the situation, we cannot be sure, I am just telling you what we know. What we know is that the devices are of a similar nature to those used by Hezbollah and there are certain pieces of information that lead us back to Iran, but I am not saying any more than that, we cannot be sure of this, but I hope you have got from what I have said a very clear message on this.
Jalal Talabani:
We are very much concerned and worried about the news we have about the device which was discovered. And … talked to some Iranian brothers, they denied it, they say we are not doing anything against Iraqi people or against multinational forces because we want to see Iraq stable and we are not ready to bring our differences with the United States to inside Iraq. We will go into more investigations to know what is the real source of the terrorist actions which were against the British forces in the south.
Question:
Mr President, I wanted to ask you about the referendum coming up in Iraq. Violence is escalating in Iraq, how will the constitution help to deter this violence? And also we have seen some divisions about the drafting of the constitution, how can it help to unite the Iraqi people at this time?
Jalal Talabani:
Well the constitution is drafted by a committee representing the Iraqi National Assembly and some friends outside the National Assembly. We try to get the universal support for this constitution and gather all the Iraqis around it. Unfortunately we are not able to convince everyone, and I think in a democratic society it is impossible to convince everyone. Now the referendum will decide the future of the constitution. I hope it will be adopted, accepted by the majority of the Iraqi people. As to the violence, I think the violence in Iraq is not going to be increased, on the contrary it is going to decrease. Only the car bombs are going on, now many areas that were under the control of terrorists, they are … from them, they have no control now on any Iraqi towns. The last town was Talafa, which was easily liberated from the terrorists. The terrorists now are using the suicide and car bombs against the people, but the big majority of Iraqis are determined and decided to participate, even those who are against the draft of the constitution, they are going to participate in the elections but say no in the election. As terrorists could not prevent us from participating in the January election, when more than 8.5 million Iraqis voted for the new National Assembly, I think they will fail to prevent Iraqis to participate in the referendum for the constitution.
Question:
I hear what you say about what you say about the Iranians being premeditated, but inevitably the American rhetoric on Iran has been much harder than the British and much more public in the past. Inevitably there are going to be those who say you have been leant on by the White House.
Tony Blair:
Leant on by the White House, how do you mean?
Question:
Well that the Americans would like you to speak in a much more bellicose way about the Iranians, the same as they have.
Tony Blair:
I don’t think that is true at all actually. You know the European negotiation with Iran over the nuclear weapons capability has been strongly supported by America. Look, I am just being open with you. What has happened is there has been a discussion over this, because obviously we have been checking what devices are being used against British forces, and because of the particular nature of this there are links back to Iran, we can’t be sure of it, but obviously I have been concerned about this myself for some time, but we want to be sure. But what people have got to know is that is has nothing to do with anyone else, it is to do with the British interest, what Iran has got to know is that this is a UN-backed mission in Iraq now. British troops, American troops, the multinational force are there with the support of the United Nations and the support of the first Iraqi government to come out of democratic elections.
Now that is the case and therefore there is no justification for any country, Iran or any other country in the region, interfering or encouraging terrorism against our forces there. And if it is also the case that they are trying to make some point about the negotiation over the nuclear weapons issue in respect of Iran, as I said earlier, we are not going to be intimidated on that. Now as the President rightly said, the Iranians deny all this completely, as you know, I think they have been out denying it today. Obviously we will continue our investigation on it. But as I said to you, I don’t think it is harmful in a sense for this issue to be discussed now, but I have to say to you that I don’t think anybody knew it was going to be raised in this way. Having said that, as I say, there is no particular harm in having the discussion.
Question:
I have a question for you Prime Minister. Putting aside the allegation that Iran is behind the attacks on British troops in southern Iraq, how implicated politically speaking Iran is in Iraq, bearing in mind what the Saudi Foreign Minister said about this.
Tony Blair:
Remind me of that again.
Question:
He just said that Iran is very heavily implicated in Iraq and they should stop doing so. A question for you Mr President …(not interpreted)
Tony Blair:
Who is going to give me the translation on that one?
Jalal Talabani:
He is asking about the differences between me and the Prime Minister of Iraq is now solved or not.
Tony Blair:
That seems to me a question that indicates that Iraq is becoming a thriving democracy, when those kinds of questions are put.
I will tell you exactly what I think about the situation in Iraq, and I think this is the important thing that is not clearly understood yet enough in countries like our own, in the rest of Europe, possibly even in the United States. Look, I have just been saying this to our Iraqi colleagues, for all sorts of reasons Iraq is the testing ground in many ways for the future of the whole of the Middle East. What the Iraqi people want is a democracy. The United Nations has said they should have a democracy. Now who wants to stop them having a democracy? These foreign Jihadists do of course, with their extremism and their perversion of the true doctrine of Islam, they don’t want a democracy in Iraq, they didn’t want one in Afghanistan, they don’t want one in Iraq, they don’t want one anywhere.
The former Saddam elements, they don’t want a democracy either because that doesn’t suit them. Also some other countries next door to Iraq, maybe they worry for their own people, what is it going to be like if you have a free Iraq that decides its future by free votes, that is run by the rule of law, that has a free press and a proper system of deciding decisions according to the will of the people. So I think for all sorts of reasons there is every element that is anti-democratic in the Middle East that wants to stop this country getting on its feet. Now what I say to our own people here, and to others in Europe, and America and elsewhere is that is the very point in time when we are being tested when we stand up and are counted, we don’t let these people down at this point, we finish the job, we see it through. Why? Because when they get their democracy, that will be a blow against this global terrorism and these anti-democratic elements everywhere, not just in Iraq.
Now maybe for the Iraqi people it is tough that this is the case that this is what has happened, but that is the way it is, and it is not us that are creating this situation. Look, the President said this a moment or two ago and he is absolutely right, the fact is the idea that these terrorists and insurgents are fighting the presence of the multinational force, their terrorism is the reason why the multinational force has to stay, until the Iraqi forces are capable of handling their own security, which we are building up the whole time. So we have got to, at every single level, expose these elements that are trying to destroy a new Iraq getting on its feet and realise this is a battle now for the future of Iraq, for the future of the region, and I actually believe for the future security of the world. So it is important.
Now as I say I am not going to say any more about the Iranian situation than I have said already, and again I would just emphasise to you what happened yesterday I think is perfectly understandable because people feel very strongly about this, who are living their lives in Iraq and are worried about security there. There is nothing premeditated about raising it, but this is the fact, this is what we are up against. And my point is that when you are up against these types of forces that are trying to impose their will, against the will of the Iraqi people, we don’t fold up and go away, we don’t run away from that situation, we stand up to it and do so as long as the Iraqi people and the Iraqi government want us to. And they are the people in the end who will say look, this is the moment now, we can handle our own security, you can leave, and then we do because there will be the sovereign government, they are now, after the December elections if everything goes through and it works out right, there will be a sovereign democratically elected government in Iraq for the first time. What possible justification is there for anyone, outside or inside Iraq, interfering with that process. And then we are there serving in that situation, they tell us what to do and when to go, and if they tell us to go, we go. If they want us to stay to help the last elements of the build-up of the Iraqi forces be put in place, then we stay for that purpose. But that is why this is a common battle, the international community is one battle. We were divided over the original decision to remove Saddam, that is true, that is history, but the future is one in which we shouldn’t be divided, we should be on the same side.
Jalal Talabani:
Thank you Mr Prime Minister, if you permit me to comment on this question also.
Tony Blair:
Yes, you had better …
Jalal Talabani:
The presence of multinational forces in Iraq is not occupation. We have many examples in the world, you see American forces in Germany, in Japan, in many countries, it is not occupation. The presence of the multinational forces, according to the decision of the United Nations and according to the will, and desire, and demand of Iraqi people, with your permission I will repeat when we met here years ago, I came and told him that when I was still in college I participated in many demonstrations asking the British to go back, to go back home, and now I am coming to ask you please come back, and come back to rescue us from the worst kind of dictatorship, and they did it, but they did it very well. But to finalise success, to build a democratic federal united independent strong Iraq, we still need them, and then we will be able … celebrate your departure, but now we are in need of you to stay there in Iraq until we will finish the terrorist crimes against our people.
First of all, I would like to correct your information saying that the dispute was not between me and Dr Al-Jaafari, but rather between the Kurdistan Alliance and Dr Al-Jaafari. The memo that was presented to him carries the signature of Barazani and my signature, and it was presented under the name of the Kurdistan alliance. All the problems were mentioned in Al-Hayat Newspaper, which you can refer to. I am pleased to say that all the disputes are now solved. During the past two days there was a delegation from the Kurdistan Front of members of the two political offices of the National Kurdistan Party and the National Alliance. The delegation met with the leadership of the United Iraqi Alliance, as will as with the Prime Minister himself. The open and clear discussions lead to good results and to solving the dispute on the basis of respecting the law of governing the country during the transitional period, and implementing the agreement reached between the Kurdistan Alliance and the United Iraqi Alliance on forming the joint coalition government. Now there is no dispute.
We are in a democratic country, as you know. And in this democratic country you may hear contradictory statements, even among our ministers. One minister praises Syria, where the other criticises it. Another minister praises Saudi Arabia, where the other criticises it. This is a democratic country, and for the first time in our life we practice democracy, but we have not yet learned its correct principles. If there are any disputes between me and Dr Al-Jaafari, or between Dr Al-Jaafari and other ministers, then this does not mean that there is a conflict. There was a dispute on certain issues which we managed to solve. We believe in the principle of solving issues through dialogue, and through compromise. That was what we did.
Tony Blair:
We didn’t get the translation, but I assume what you were saying was that it was all a nasty rumour got up by the media, that is what we always say in these circumstances and occasionally it is true.
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